Wednesday, April 21, 2010

Moving the nests

It was requested that I repost this as a new topic.


I just got off the phone with Ki Hwang, the property manager, and he has said that he is willing to have his people do the work of moving the nests so there will be no cost to the rest of us. The plan is for them to take certain nests (he said 4 or 5) that are in the areas where people have been complaining and move them to far sides of the property. He says that this should handle the problem of the aggressive geese to which I have not found or received any other immediate solution. He is able to do this with the permit he already obtained.
The downside is obviously the eggs in the nest. I don’t expect that these eggs will hatch after being moved but we must realize that if these geese are removed by Fish and Wildlife Services the eggs will not hatch either. As much as I know everybody would like to have the eggs hatch we must realize that the environment these geese live in is not totally natural as it does not include predators which very often snatch eggs or kill goslings.
I support this plan to move the nest more multiple reasons, the biggest being that no geese will be euthanized. I’m sure everyone here has specific geese that they are worried about more than the rest and to me this plan will save those specific geese. It is those specific geese that were a major source of motivation for me in this effort and to know they will live will mean I have succeeded.
My second reason for supporting this plan is that, while many of you have come up with great long term plans or great arguments for why to leave the geese alone, nobody (including myself) has been able to come up with an immediate plan of action to deal with the main cause of this whole issue. Ki has stated that as he has now been made aware of the existence of the threat of the aggressive geese (again if you choose to oppose this statement, you should do it quickly and solidly) he is required by law to deal with it and if someone is injured now by a goose he would be liable. This is the only immediately viable solution I have received and I think it is a fair compromise.
We have also discussed the long term efforts to handle geese problems but as these are not pressing and not likely as controversial I will discuss them later.
If you are seriously opposed to plan then you should do what is necessary to come up with an immediate solution that is effective and affordable.
Please post your responses on the message board so others can see them.
Thank you,
Ross

24 comments:

  1. Ross,
    Thank you so much for the update. I agree that this solution is probably the only one for the short term. It is much better than the destruction of these animals. I believe that they are behaving as nature intended and if, as a community, we cannot respect their space, then this is what needs to be done. I just hope it satisfies those who are threatened by the animals behavior. I would still like to investigate the possibility of education in our community.
    Thank you so much for all your efforts.
    Teresa & Larry

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  2. Hi Ross (Thanks for re-posting your email above)-

    Both Joe and I, too, think this may be the best short-term solution---even though we really wish it didn't have to be done in the first place!.

    I think most of us agree that it's the people in the equation that are the true source of the problem here---the geese are just being wild animals. ;)

    Thanks!
    Andrea & Joe

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  3. I am concerned that moving the nests isn't necessary for all the geese. I think Ki may be acting over the top and unnecessarily risking the lives of the incubating babies in the process.
    Further, moving the nests to the perimeter endangers the family. Canada geese need to nest near water. As soon as the babies hatch they lead them to water.
    Although I know this seems to be the best short term solution, I still do not agree with it. Its over the top and far too precautionary. Ki cannot run this place out of fear for a lawsuit from some disgruntled resident who files a law suit over a wild animal.

    I also feel moving all the nests will present an additional problem to the territory issue. These geese all settled on specific territories, and we do not know these boundaries.
    By moving the one nest from the goose that is causing the problem further reduces the additional problems that may arise.
    Surely there cannot be that many residents complaining of several aggressive geese.

    I do not believe that all five nests NEED to be moved, and we still need to respect nature as much as we can. Take care of the source of the problem by moving that nest, but leave the others alone. AND move the nests with care.
    Who are Ki's "people"? The landscapers?
    I would much rather the residents who care about these geese move them if it comes to that. If the nests are moved carefully we can hope that the goose will still incubate them. Its a huge risk that by moving the nests the mother will abandon the eggs after they have been handled.
    I would very much like for Ki to talk to the residents who have complained, and explain the situation and see how they feel. I understand they may feel frightened, but perhaps some education for the resident will be efficient enough for the time. If the resident opposes the information and demands the goose is removed, then we can proceed, but if the resident has tolerated this goose this long, surely s/he can "survive" past the goose for another few days/weeks until the goslings hatch.

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  4. I agree that moving the nest seems to be the best response to move the aggressive goose.

    I do not think the grounds people should move the nests. They aren't exactly passionate about keeping these geese alive. I also would like to have Kis participation in consulting an expert on how to safely move the nests, that ensures the safety and survival of both the parents and goslings.
    If a nest must be moved they should be kept near the water. You can move one or two near me! I don't think anyone near us minds the geese, and we have a large protected area. The two nesting geese have moved on now that their goslings have hatched.
    I also dont think all nests need to be moved. Let's look into this further, and consult an expert before any action is taken.
    Ideally the resident who complained will be addressed by management and assured that his or her safety is the primary concern, but explain the situation and ask how they feel about the nests being left until the babies hatch, which should be just a few more days, no more than a week or two at most.

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  5. What would happen if we tried this... maybe carefully move one nest (from the most aggressive goose) and see what happens.
    That way it wont endanger all nests, and we can see how we may need to change the game plan based on the results from one experiment. If it works then we can go ahead and move the other aggressive nest... one day at a time?

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  6. These are good comments but I am pretty sure he planned to start moving them this morning. I don't know what time so if you want to help him you might want to go talk to him. He is open to suggestions but I wouldn't go if you don't have a plan.
    Ross

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  7. We came home from work today to find the nest outside of our house gone. We have been watching the nest for WEEKS and waiting for the little geese to hatch, only to have the nest removed right before the eggs hatched.
    I cannot express my sadness and frustration regarding this issue. I am positive that the nest was simply discarded, because the geese are sitting where it used to be. Those eggs were no more than a week from hatching and to see the nest gone now is truly heartbreaking. I have NEVER seen any serious aggressive behavior from these geese and we live right on top of the nest site.
    Is there a report from the residents who have issues? Aside from the occasional squabble with a turkey, our geese have only watched their nest and kept an eye on everyone who passes. They may hiss, but that is only because they are wary. They do not charge or attack, I pass them everyday.

    I am disgusted with the management here, the secrecy in which they handled this issue, and now I am stuck with a perfect view of two heartbroken geese. Thank you so much Amador Lakes.

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  8. I'm so sorry to hear this - and also very, VERY disappointed. Does anyone know if additional geese were removed as when I came home I noted that there seemed to be significantly less geese about (although I'm happy to report that I did see one family of 5 chicks still around). I just thought it was coincidence, but knowing that they removed at least one nest makes me wonder what else they may have done.

    Does anyone know what happened to the nest? Were there multiple nests affected? If in fact it was just discarded that is absolutely WRONG and so disrespectful.

    I really thought they were trying to do the right thing here..

    I certainly hope they will make an attempt to apply some sort of preventative measures for future to discourage nesting in certain areas. I would hate to think that noone learned anything from this and next year would result in the same need to kill.

    Can't even express how sad I feel and really disappointed...

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  9. I came home from work last night to witness a goose that seemed in distress. First off, I had never seen any geese in this one area; the area is a field behind the Amador Lakes property; it’s really close to my balcony. The goose was sending out call after call and walking back and forth. All I could think was that maybe management moved the nest out there and the eggs got damaged or wouldn’t hatch so the goose was distressed. I didn’t know what to do except feel heartbroken. This behavior went on until sundown. I watch the geese a lot and have never seen this behavior. We need to find the truth as to what happened. But how will we know if it’s the truth or not since I have heard management tell lies to the media? The geese will come here every year since this is such an inviting place for them. I just wish the people (I’m sure it’s very few) that are so scared of the geese would just move out.

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  10. Hi, I've been following this blog since it was set up. As much as I appreciate the concerns posted here, I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to throw this forum open to those in fear of the geese. Won't that be better than being judgmental and saying things like it's the people in the equation that are the problem and that they should move out?

    I would like to draw everyone's attention to this news report: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=7395381. If we can be so compassionate and concerned about the nesting geese, perhaps we could also spare a thought for a cancer patient and her trauma after being attacked by one of these birds. If one is afraid of an attacking bird/animal, does that automatically make them anti-animal? I have personally seen neighbors being attacked by a particularly aggressive geese around our apartment. And that was way BEFORE the nests were removed.

    A solution can only be arrived with openness and collaboration, not with one-sided approaches like asking the fearful residents to vacate the apartment complex.

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  11. I am extremely disappointed in management as well.
    I heard the geese last night as well, sounding very distressed. I would very much like management to have respected the wildlife, as the residents should as well.
    A matter of days or weeks until the eggs hatched would not have harmed anyone and the geese would have moved on.
    My heart breaks for the geese who have lost their children and are in distress. It is unhealthy for all of us as we share this space, and the distress has affected not only the geese but a majority of the residents here.

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  12. About the moved nests.
    Ki wrote me this morning and said that they moved two nests (he didn't say where to, I just sent a message asking) as the rest had already hatched. I still think this was the best compromise and I am happy that the geese themselves were not destroyed.

    This forum is open to anybody, including those who are having problems with the geese, as we would really like to know everyones thoughts and what we can do to help. Right now we are only seeing one side of the story and are having difficulty believing there are many people against the geese. Names are not required but it would be nice to get an idea of how many people are against the geese and why. If you don't speak your opinion than we won't know you exist and we will continue making every effort to keep the geese here as long as possible.

    For those that love the geese, we still need to come up with the long term solutions of population management and clean up.
    Ross

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  13. In response to the above Anonymous person - I feel for the individual who felt threatened by the goose, and I agree in a situation such as that, the nest should be removed from the carport - that in itself is not a safe place for a nest or its geese. Removing all the nests is not necessary. Some areas were secluded away from walking residents, and away from anyone who may have crossed their path (such as the nest under my window as well). Many of the geese were not a threat. Those are the ones we fight for. The ones who did not need to be removed, and who have just as much right to live here as we do.

    I have great respect, empathy, and admiration for those who suffer illness and need strength to fight and support themselves throughout the painful processes. It is with the same respect, empathy and admiration that I fight for the animals that also chose this safe place to live their lives.

    I feel that management should have definitely removed that nest, and in future we as residents should be aware of geese who may want to nest on rooftops. Precautionary measures can be taken early to prevent the geese from nesting there and threatening your safety as well as theirs. Rooftop nesting is a dangerous position for us, and for their goslings. I do not agree that all nests needed to be moved (and possibly destroyed). All nests were not a threat. All geese are not a threat.

    Surely the individual who is a cancer patient can understand that, and we as your neighbors would also like to be your friends, not your enemies.

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  14. Totally agree with you Melanie! Many of us have said from the beginning that we would like to understand why and how people were feeling threatened and inconvenienced. We are not unfeeling for ANYone, but there's a difference between a situation that is unhealthy and one that is a short term inconvenience. There didn't seem to be a lot of information as to what the actual complaints were around.

    It does seem like there are less geese in general though the last few days. Am I just being paranoid Or were there other geese removed as well? Does anyone know?

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  15. Here is a reply from the Migratory Bird Permit Specialist, Fish and Wildife. I have an e- in to Jenifer as to how I contact the FOIA folks.

    Hi Alice,

    We did not issue a depredation permit to Amador Lakes, and I believe that you would need to submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request in order to obtain that kind of information.

    Take care,

    Jen

    Jennifer C. Brown
    Migratory Bird Permit Specialist
    Migratory Bird Permit Office
    U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
    2800 Cottage Way, Room W-2606
    Sacramento, California 95825
    (916) 978-6183

    Sadly Marie Stausberg, the Migratory Bird Chief of F&W has yet to return my calls. I was hoping she could give us information on moving nests. I am not confident that un-hatched eggs are protected based on a comment by Doug Cordell, the Refuge Advocate. (I may have Totally Misunderstood Doug's comment, so do not get too excited.)
    I will call Marie again on Monday(for the nth time). And will try to figure out who the FOIA is and what their # is.

    Continuing on, Alice

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  16. At Amador do I abhor the treatment of the geeseApril 24, 2010 at 3:41 PM

    To quote Whitney Houston, "I believe the children are the future. Teach them well and let them lead the way". I've seen children chasing geese with sticks. If we can teach them that these are wild animals, perhaps we can get them/us to co-exist. Furthermore, if we get children interested in the movement, give them T-shirts and a voice, that would be hard to counter. Like it or not, these management folks built a pond, and if you build a pond on a natural flyway, geese will come. In my opinion, moving nests is not exactly intelligent wildlife management. Kind of reminds me of New England fishermen that "solved" the starfish predator problem (they were eating the clam crop) by cutting up the starfish only to learn that a new starfish regenerates from each piece. Why not get the children involved in the conservation effort even if it is just an I LOVE GEESE t-shirt

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  17. When I first moved to Amador Lakes years ago, the geese population was more controlled than it is now. Even though birds would lay 6-7 eggs, only one or 2 would reach adulthood. It was the circle of life. But now it seems that the coyotes and other predators have disappeared and I see families with 6 or 7 babies growing to adult hood and returning the next year to have 6 or 7 babies of their own. It is getting out of hand. I have a little girl and I am nervous about the numbers of geese that are roaming around our lakes. Yes, they are wild animals but I didn't choose to live in the wild, they have come to live in my home. I don't support just killing them all, but for those of you who are so against removing some birds, think about those of us who are afraid for our own children.

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  18. I don't support extreme measures like killing either, but it's only natural for those who have been attacked to fear these birds. I can completely understand parents' fears for their children, especially toddlers and little babies.

    Please also remember, newer residents may not even be familiar with the birds' nesting behaviors and are likely to be in panic if attacked. In that, the management should step in at least to warn/educate all residents about any likely attacks in particular seasons.

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  19. Hi Ross,
    Thank you for all your posts and taking charge in the saving of our geese. I want to help out in ANY way that I can. If it means moving the nests then let me know a time and place and I will be there to help out. I have a crate available so if it is needed to transport geese along with their nests to another area, let me know. Even though I feel that this is unnecassary.

    I do have to say though that I do not feel that the geese are in any way aggressive. They hiss and move towards people who get in their territory as a warning to stay away. If WE (the people) know how to act around the geese, stand up to them and show some authority (walking towards them as tall as possible and talking to them) they walk away and back away from you. People definately need to be educated as to how to act around the wildlife and I am willing to print out fliers and hold a class (once a month if need be for newcomers) to do so. Although this may be the managements responsibility I am willing to do whatever it takes for the future safety of the residents and geese. And what a great idea that someone had about getting the children involved and educating them as well. My child has been informed of this whole process and he is thrilled that the geese will not be harmed. I do apologize however if any of you have seen my child disturbing the geese. I recently caught him doing so (chasing the geese) and I called him inside, he was all done playing outside (which he was not happy about but good, hopefully he learned) and we had a discussion about our efforts to save the geese and how we need to protect the geese not harm them or scare them. This was a learning experience (as life is) and if we take the time to educate instead of coming up with irrational actions then a stronger message is represented.

    Thank you,
    Michelle

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  20. Michelle, your offer is very generous, I appreciater You and all you have contributed!

    Thank you, Alice

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  21. I heard that nests have been moved and eggs have been sprayed so as not to hatch. My call in to Marie Strausberg, the Migratory Bird Chief has not been returned. I will call her, for the nth time this week. (is she a Public Servant?)

    Also, I will get a hold the FOIA, the Freedom of Information Act folks. I have an e-mail in to Jennifer Brown, the Permit Clerk for the Migratory Bird Office asking how to contact the FOIA. Jennifer stated the F&G Migratoty Bird Office did not issue a Depredation Permit to Amador Lakes and suggested I contact the FOIA.

    We still do not know who has issued permits for the actions Amador Lakes has taken.

    It seems Amador Lakes has taken action regarding nests, I heard they moved nests from adults who could not find them...... what is that about?
    So we have greiving geese???????? And dying eggs?

    I also heard some eggs were sprayed within the nests, but the geese on the nests have the same "aggressive behaviors". The nests have not been moved, the eggs will never hatch, but the "aggressive geese" remain on the nest. These Agressive Geese are ONLY aggressive while they sit on a nest, how smart is it to spray eggs on nests to kill them while allowing geese to sit on that nest?
    Remember, Geese are Only aggressive as a matter of protection, like a dog, cat, or any other animal.

    Well, I am confused, not much is making sense. On Monday, 4/19 Kei told me he would keep renters "in the loop", have you been notified of actions Amador Lakes have taken regarding relocating and spraying nests?

    On Monday 4/19, Kei also told me he would post on every mailbox a plan regarding management of the geese. Has anyone seen this? Did I miss it? Please let me know, I would hate to think this was only "shop talk" from Kei................
    any ideas from residents?????????????????
    Thanks, me

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  23. Hello,

    Last night my husband found a notice that Ross B. had made in the recycle bin. WE had no idea all this was going on. It is sad and very disappointing to hear that these animals may be killed. SO MUCH was going through my mind last night. I was angry, ready to write emails to the office, go over there and talk with them, call PETA and tell them what is going on, call the newspaper, and more. I decided to read the blog (glad it is here) to see for myself what is happening. I am still at a loss because I have not seen any notices ANYWHERE.

    I feel that as tenants here, we need to be informed of things like this because this is what we pay for; the ambiance and the beautiful scenery here. This is why my family decided to live here. We could have lived anywhere in Dublin, but we chose here because of the animals. I have a son and he loves it when we take him around and he gets to see everything, including the wildlife. But a big thing is being missed...it is WILDLIFE! Animals, like humans protect their territory, protect themselves. If one person has come too close to the geese and it happens all to often, the animals are going to act that way towards everyone else because they feel threatened.

    People here should practice common sense, teach their children common sense as well. It is wildlife people. I am not saying that those who may have been attacked did or did not do anything wrong, but we don't know the truth because we are not being informed. Management has a duty to inform use, we pay rent here.

    A meeting should take place, instead of keeping us in the dark. I am a stay at home mom and i hear less and less birds around here and where did all the turkeys go, did they get the shaft as well without us knowing?

    If people who were attacked are still here, how come we can not hear from them as to what happened...not to gang up on them, but to know and to understand if they did something to provoke the geese and to educate so it does not happen again.

    Please keep me posted and if any help is needed, please email me: treeedom@gmail.com.

    Thanks,

    Tuwanna

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  24. I am the anonymous poster who posted that news link and mentioned neighbors being attacked. As far as I could see, none of them did even anything remote as "provoking" the birds. These people were just out of their apartments, walking toward the car park (a lot of times while going for work in the morning), and one male goose in particular would just lunge at them, hit them with its beak, unprovoked. This happened to little kids too, children too young to even know what provocation means. It's not difficult for their parents to be alarmed...

    I have to admit, we too chose to stay here because of the lush greenery and the wildlife. However, we would have appreciated some notification/warning about the nesting habits of the geese and of ways to deal with sudden attacks.

    A meeting of all residents sounds good. It's not a question of majority vs minority. If even one person is attacked/feels threatened, it is a matter of concern. It's natural for those attacked to report the matter to the management. One doesn't live here free of cost, as such one would expect a relatively safe/hassle-free life. That relates to human or non-human threats/issues.

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